TAN SHUZHEN
Interviews with Experts
Interview with Professor Sheila Melvin from Stanford and Professor Jindong Cai from Bard College, the co-author of Rhapsody in Red: How Western Classical Music Became Chinese
What inspired you to write the book Rhapsody in Red ? Prof. Melvin: Tan Shuzhen is one of the people who inspired us to write the book. I went to the symposium for the 120th anniversary of the Shanghai Symphony, and Tan Shuzhen spoke at the meeting. [Afterwards] I introduced myself and I followed up with him and began learning about the history of the orchestra from him. It was so fascinating that we started researching more and more. We then met Li Delun, Zhou Xiaoyan, and other musicians and we just kind of went on from there. Tan Shuzhen lived on the second or the third floor of a very old building on Nanjing Lu (南京路), and he had a sign on the door telling people “No solicitors. Don’t knock on the door unless you are invited!” because there were constantly people coming to see him. He wanted time to himself, to do things like read books about acoustics— he was very interested in concert halls, and he was really determined that the Shanghai Symphony should have a concert hall that was designed for orchestral music rather than opera. Because at that time they were building the Shanghai Grand Theater (上海大剧院) but he said that’s not a concert hall. So I think he’d be so happy if he knew the concert hall that the Shanghai Symphony has now. He in his 80s or 90s, but he was still making violins, repairing violins, he loved to fix things, he loved to study, and he took care of his wife who was quite old––I think she had dementia––but he really wanted to live long enough to take care of her until the end. He was a family man [and] such a lovely person. And he was a Christian, and I remembered he didn’t want an official funeral, but he got it anyway, haha. He was just a great person; I loved climbing the stairs and sitting and talking to him and listening to his stories. Prof. Cai: As a musician I think he was fascinating because throughout his years, he had always been interested [in and beyond] the music world. Architectures, concert halls. Prof. Melvin: Learning languages until the day he died. Learning Japanese, French, Italian, so he could read the books about the things he loved. [...] I miss Tan Shuzhen. He was a good friend. He was very inspiring as a human being. Someone who went through so much but never lost faith and hope in humanity. And just had this lifelong devotion to music and to learning, and to sharing that passion with other people. So I think he’s a really admirable person, and I miss him as a friend who was lovely to talk to. I feel very privileged to have known him.
Interview with Professor Heather Greer, the director and producer of the documentary The Gentleman from Shanghai (1999).
What inspired you to produce the documentary The Gentleman from Shanghai? Professor Greer: I was working for Walter Scheuer, the Executive Producer of From Mao to Mozart, in Beijing. On the flight over, he mentioned that they were working on the re-release of From Mao to Mozart, for the 20th anniversary of the film. I asked him about Professor Tan - he seems to be a very important character but he only has a small part in From Mao to Mozart. Mr. Scheuer said that at the time making the film, Professor Tan was still very concerned about the political situation and was still nervous to speak. But he agreed it would be interesting to interview Professor Tan. He sent me down to Shanghai to meet with him and when I came back to Beijing, Mr. Scheuer asked me to make a film about Professor Tan’s life twenty years after the Cultural Revolution. So that’s how I came to make The Gentleman from Shanghai. What was your experience talking with Professor Tan? Are there specific anecdotes you still remember until today? Professor Greer: Oh I remember very well, even though it was many many years ago. The first thing I remembered was what a peaceful, beautiful soul he was. His music and his violins were in him. He was just so present, it’s how I would describe him. He had a sparkle in his eye; he was over ninety at that point. And I remembered the first thing he said to me was ‘I want to live to a hundred, that’s my goal.’ And he almost made it. Sara: Ninety-five. Professor Greer: Ninety-five, that’s right! I just remembered being in his house with him, watching him make his violins, watching him be in his home, and watching him care for his wife - who was sick. He was so gracious, but he also had a good sense of humor. He was talking about what he was wearing - he wanted to wear suspenders; he wanted to speak in English. [...] And I just remembered him welcoming us into his home. [...] He was happy because I had grown up playing the violin. He was very powerful but very peaceful. What you see in [The Gentleman from Shanghai] was very much what you experienced with him off the camera. And his wife was quite sick when we were there, and I just remember how much he cared for her. He would always go visit her, always hold her hands, talk to her, and play music. It was very touching. -Could you talk about Western Music in China during the 1960’s and 70’s, as well as the adversities Professor Tan had gone through? Professor Greer: The fact that professor Tan was the first Chinese member of the Shanghai Symphony is something that surprised me. That distinction is one of the reasons he became a target of criticism. He was such a prominent figure in this very specific area. And because he was a man of peace, I think that made everyone more angry towards him. I did actually meet [Ni Wenzheng], one of the close students who had criticized Tan. He had come later to have a lot of remorse for what he had done. Even though he comes off as a very simple person, he is a very powerful person and he had a very prominent role, being the deputy director of the Shanghai Conservatory during the Cultural Revolution. So the fact that he was in that position is what ultimately turned everybody against him, and the criticism and the beatings. [Tan] said that the criticism was much harder, having students turn on him, having to be confined away from his home, and cleaning the toilets. Could you talk about Professor Tan’s legacies? Professor Greer: Well, you’re his legacy. Sara: Thank you! Professor Greer: No, you are! I mean, the most amazing thing to me is that…his legacy for music is obvious, because what he brought with his music and his teaching and his leadership and being the first of many things in China. The first violin-making school, the first Chinese member of the Shanghai Symphony, instead of leaving to the U.S. or Canada, he stayed, because he loved China. The fact that he stayed is part of the legacy. His family, his grandchildren––he probably has great grandchildren now–– his legacy lives on and everyone he taught or touched and his legacy lives on in his story, and in people like you who are inspired by him.
Interview with Professor Shelley Zhang, assistant professor of Ethnomusicology from Rutgers University.
Could you please talk about western music during the 1960’s and 70’s China? Prof.Zhang: It's a very complicated one, because on the one hand, western music during the 1960’s and 70’s in China was really heavily censored, particularly from 1966 to 1976. [...] Musicians such as Tan Shuzhen, Li Delun, and others worked really hard to ensure that there was still learning and performing of western music. These instances, particularly when censorship became more strict and forced at the higher and regional levels, were often very controlled and had to first gain permission for it to happen. Even in instances where we don’t think of traditional western music being heard, [it still existed]. Li Delun [established] the first orchestra by Chinese people playing western music, which now developed into the National China Performing Art Orchestra. He really wanted to see it as an orchestra for the communist cause and the betterment for a New China. They did perform western instruments. He also was involved with the creation of the China National Traditional Orchestra[, an] orchestra made up of Chinese instruments performing folk songs, traditional songs, with folk and traditional instruments, [...] arranged like a western orchestra. The standardization of Chinese music in that kind of orchestral setting also took a lot from Western music. And so in [controlled and selective] ways we have western music being heard [...], of course also in private ways by people who still maintained their private collection, and did so without notice from officials. We see western music influencing the creation of a new Chinese national music, and so it is still being heard in different ways at that time. Could you please talk about the Chinese Western-musicians that went through the Cultural Revolution? Prof.Zhang: Musicians in general during that time were targeted as a group––[even professional traditional musicians]. Traditional music, especially music related to the court and feudal history, was very much attacked: Beijing opera musicians and also those who practiced western music. [As a result,] they had to be innovative. Sometimes musicians had to quickly learn Chinese folk instruments to maintain their jobs. Li Delun was told that there would be a new set of rules coming from Jiang Qing and the gang of four, and he would turn to musicians and say “ok we have to learn the Erhu (二胡) and these different types of folk instruments, if you still want the job next week.” [...] Part of the real tragedy is that we lose a whole generation of professionals. China is still recovering from that in some ways. There were also survived musicians, such as Tan, who graciously forgave those who criticized him. [...] Sara: Ni Wen Zhen showed great remorse many years later, when thinking back to that memory. Prof.Zhang: I think a lot of former Red Guards have to live with what they did. Sometimes it’s hard to forgive yourself, and [it also caused] mental health issues for that generation. [As you see], there are continuous ramifications from the Cultural Revolution. Could you please talk about Professor Tan’s legacy? I think it’s a really great legacy besides what he did with pedagogy at the shanghai conservatory, today still one of the top conservatories and the most prestigious in China, but also for him to be very clear about his grace and his kindness, and what he did for violin making in China. [...] He was the first Chinese to perform with the [Shanghai Municipal Orchestra] in the violin section to really break through that racial barrier, and to take that first step. Is there anything else you would like to speak about? When I started doing this research, there weren’t that many people writing, or speaking [about the topic]. [...] It’s so encouraging to me to see you and others asking these questions, creating these projects, and continuing on the work[...]. Whenever I teach about music in China, I talk about these musicians and mention the Opium Wars, and the Asian Holocaust during WWII. When I asked students if they had heard of these events, at first, maybe just one or two hands raised up, and now a good portion of the class will have heard of the [historical events]. For [more people are aware] of music in these different contexts and other roles Chinese people have played in this musical history, it’s very exciting and encouraging.
Interview with Professor Lei X.Ouyang, the author of Music as Mao’s Weapon: Remembering the Cultural Revolution
Could you please briefly explain your research concentration? Prof.Ouyang: It is really ethnomusicological. I’m looking at what people had experienced during the cultural revolution, and I’m trying to better understand what that lived experience was like. We can talk about this political extreme and how 1966-1976 was a very specific period, but I want to know how that lived experience for individuals varied––it’s not just one monolithic experience. [I am looking at] how their social political position, age, education, family contexts impacted their experiences in the Cultural Revolution, but then also how they remember it today, [particularly through music]: in what ways music facilitates that remembering and invokes feelings of nostalgia, especially in comparing and contrasting the experience of the cultural revolution versus other more contemporary time periods. What I’m really curious about is how it is that we can see these generational trends and distinctions that older generations who were socialized, educated before socialism and communism came to China, can more readily/easily made that separation. And then you have another extreme offolks who grew up as children during the CR, their memories during the CR, you cannot detach that from the politics in ways that older adults could. And so first of all that alone is of great interest to me, but then the role music plays within that generational imprinting as well as remembering are the key themes in my research. Could you please talk about western music during the 1960’s and 70’s China? One important aspect I would like to remind folks when talking about this is that European classical music has a long history before the Cultural Revolution. Western classical music was very popular decades and decades before the Cultural Revolution, being traced back to the early 1900s, and was really becoming familiar to many circles in the urban centers of China. It’s not new in or after the Cultural Revolution. But of course, given the politics of Mao and what was happening, it came under attack. [...] Looking at the work of Jiang Qing and the model revolutionary operas and ballets, and of course my area of focus in terms of mass songs, you absolutely see the legacy, the influence of western classical music in the propaganda art. While it came under attack because of politics, the influence was still there. So of course in From Mao to Mozart you see the incredible scrutiny; it’s very real. But at the same time I would say in the mass songs that were supported by the CCP, you see that influence in terms of the diatonic scales, in terms of all the musical structures. So it didn’t totally disappear; it was still there throughout. And then Jinag Qing wanted to use the so-called “best” of multiple traditions, and as a result the model operas and ballets and symphonies are all influenced by western classical music as well. So while under attack, it did not disappear. And then you see this huge resurgence in the decades that followed. So once it is no longer under scrutiny, it came back really strong, in terms of the training and the interest.
